Gamification Expert Series: Lovelynne Chong and Jaxton Cheah
Welcome to our seventh Gamification Expert Series!
Welcome to yet another instalment of the Gamification Expert Series! This time is a little different, because we have a video attached for you as well. Today we’re going to talk about engagement, advocacy and outreach in an age of digital saturation. Featuring:
- Lovelynne Chong, Founder and MsChief of Marketing – Fyreflyz Pte Ltd
- Jaxton Cheah, Game Thinking Coach and CEO – Talent Intelligence Sdn Bhd
Guan Heng Tan:
Okay, good afternoon. My name is Guan. I am a facilitator, a coach, and a consultant, and with a stroke of good fortune recently I also work with an incredibly talented team at Gametize Academy. And today I will be the moderator. So welcome to yet another instalment of the gamification expert series hosted by Gametize. If you’re new to us here, this is where we have a conversation with members of the community on all things gamification, particularly issues pertaining to the business application and equally important, its impact on people. Today, we’re doing things a little differently. Our usual format has been a one-on-one interview (that is) transcribed into text. So this time around, we’re introducing a video version on top of the transcription. We also have with us a panel of remarkable and, dare I say, young entrepreneurs and innovators. So let’s start with Miss Lovelynne Chong, founder of Fyreflyz and advocate for bridging innovation and marketing data. Lovelynne has spearheaded campaigns, such as the Singapore Tourism Board’s Kampong Glam United and People’s Gallery for the National Gallery, that have garnered her multiple awards, including the 2022 STBs (Singapore Tourism Board) Outstanding Marketing Idea Award. So welcome, Lovelynne.
Lovelynne Chong: Thank you. Happy to be here.
Guan Heng Tan:
Next up, we have Mr. Jaxton Cheah. Jaxton is a gamification advocate in Malaysia, he works with many reputable gamification experts in the United States and Europe, to promote game thinking and gamification in the Southeast Asian region. He was recruited by Amy Jo Kim, the founder of Game Thinking Academy to become a certified game thinking coach, and he has been a valuable partner of Gametize over the years as well. So great to have you on board, Jaxton.
Jaxton Cheah: Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks Guan.
Engagement, Advocacy and Outreach in an age of Digital Saturation
Guan Heng Tan:
Lovely to have all of you here despite your busy schedule. So let’s get started. Today we’re going to talk about engagement, advocacy and outreach in an age of digital saturation. So it used to be a case where our inbox got flooded constantly with advertisements, messages, and to be honest, stuff that we will never open. So whenever there is a new channel or media, oversaturation happens, and with the technological capacity that we see today, that’s happening at a more rapid pace, particularly as well, during the COVID-19 environment, we all experience digital fatigue. You have limited attention span, a finite number of consumers and hours in a day. But content remains a variable, and it constantly increases in output, intensity and variety. Yet, traffic isn’t going to increase because Internet penetration is already at the level of saturation. So my question is, what do we do now?
We are privileged to have with us today this diverse panel of distinguished guests with an equally diverse set of skills. Perhaps I could start with you Lovelynne. The introduction I gave seems a little bleak. What are your initial thoughts on this?
Lovelynne Chong:
It’s interesting, because as you’re saying that, you know, I’m surrounded by screens, despite the background, so personally, when I saw this question, I feel that content saturation will be a continuous problem. But it’s the quality of content and how it motivates its audience that needs to change. Does that make sense?
Guan Heng Tan:
Perhaps I can just very quickly follow up. I mean, we keep hearing this thing about quality content, right? What do we actually mean by quality content? What constitutes quality content?
Lovelynne Chong:
So personally, I divide quality content into three things. One, it’s generated based on interest. The second is that it engages you at a level that you already expect it to. And the third thing is it gives you options of something that you are already looking for, or are considering to acquire, or knowledge that you want to know, or somewhere along the lines of intense interest.
Guan Heng Tan:
Thank you for that Lovelynne. Jaxton, your take on this?
Jaxton Cheah:
So, maybe I will go to the first question first, which is actually my thought when it comes to like, this digital saturation. I believe that from a situation of a pandemic to now an endemic, you know, (this issue of) digital fatigue actually cannot be denied. So I think people are craving for a physical experience, right? And then, of course, they will have higher expectations when it comes to digital experience as well, particularly at the workplace, right. But I’m optimistic because I see opportunity, especially for gamification or experience design projects. And the second question, I think it comes to content, right? So I think, like, what Lovelynne said, I think content needs to be relatable; that it’s relevant to them. My perspective will be actually more on the work that I do a lot of, or my focus. It’s about learning content that is relevant to them, at the right time and something that is actually personalised to them as well. So what do I mean by content? And, of course, definitely it would be bite-sized, you know, that it wouldn’t be like, very lengthy. That it meets the expectation of people looking at what quality content would be. Make sense to you Guan?
How to Discern Content in the Marketplace
Guan Heng Tan:
Let us stick to the topic of content: We definitely want to look at quality content, I think we have some definition, or at least boundaries, on what we understand by quality content. There’s just so much content out there right now. How do we discern, you know, what’s quality and what is rubbish… (the stuff) that is flooding the marketplace at this point in time.
Lovelynne Chong:
I think it’s a demand and supply thing. Personally, I feel it’s personal, it’s very personal. And what Jaxton said about it being physical, I agree and disagree a little bit, even though I’m in marketing, mostly because I think COVID has accelerated our need to exist digitally. And also showed us that a lot of things that we thought we can only do physically, like grocery shopping, can now be replaced easily digitally. But I also do agree with Jaxton in the sense that the craving for knowledge has also heightened quite a bit during COVID. And as a result, people are realising that, oh I need to know more. When it comes to quality content, I really feel it’s very individual. It’s very personalised, the different age demographics and age group has different definitions of quality content. So because of what I do, I prefer to build quality content according to segment– the different customer segments. And, again, to me, it’s really about how brands, businesses, services can motivate their audience into, you know, looking at their content, interacting with their content.
Guan Heng Tan:
That’s interesting. What happens if a client comes to you, I mean, for both of you, right, and whether it’s in the learning realm, or the marketing realm, when a customer comes to you and says, I want to reach across the board, across generations, across demographics. So that’s their universe in terms of their target audience. So what would be your advice to them then?
Jaxton Cheah:
So, maybe I will go to the first question first, which is actually my thought when it comes to like, this digital saturation. I believe that from a situation of a pandemic to now an endemic, you know, (this issue of) digital fatigue actually cannot be denied. So I think people are craving for a physical experience, right? And then, of course, they will have higher expectations when it comes to digital experience as well, particularly at the workplace, right. But I’m optimistic because I see opportunity, especially for gamification or experience design projects. And the second question, I think it comes to content, right? So I think, like, what Lovelynne said, I think content needs to be relatable; that it’s relevant to them. My perspective will be actually more on the work that I do a lot of, or my focus. It’s about learning content that is relevant to them, at the right time and something that is actually personalised to them as well. So what do I mean by content? And, of course, definitely it would be bite-sized, you know, that it wouldn’t be like, very lengthy. That it meets the expectation of people looking at what quality content would be. Make sense to you Guan?
Lovelynne Chong:
Personally, for me, my advice would be, then you need to focus on the reach, before you can focus on the quality.
Jaxton Cheah:
Yeah. Then to me, I think it’s actually more than just looking at the content. We may have to look at the delivery methods. I quote an example: we provide bespoke content development services for clients. We also provide off-the-shelf content, which is something they can just acquire, you know, to begin learning. There’s a lot of content, a lot, right, but I think the challenge is always not just the content but is actually the strategy. So we came out the Golden Triangle for Workplace Learning, which is helping to drive sustainable workplace learning. The Golden Triangle consists of content of course, and then it consists of delivery as well. It could be a platform– technology platform like LMS. It could also be (live-facilitated) instructor-led training. The key is the learning strategy, which is what motivates the people, which is actually to adopt the cost, the learning content, as well as to complete the content as well. So gamification, in this case, plays a very important role. It’s looks at behavioural change, and how we can motivate people, for a longer journey, which is what we call sustainable. Yeah. So that’s my take when we talk about the reach.
Using Technology in the Workplace
Guan Heng Tan:
Sure. Lovelynne, your take on technology, since Jaxton brought up this whole thing on technology. What does, you know, delivery methods and technology, technological tools, play in all this?
Lovelynne Chong:
I love technology. But I also feel that technology is drowning us with too many options. So I also agree that the strategy needs to be well defined, regardless whether it’s online or offline. It’s just empirical that, first, we have to decide what the OKRs are, before we look into how we can do it. And I think gamification is a very, very good way of really re-evaluating what we are focusing on.
Jaxton Cheah:
Yeah. So when it comes to technology, if I may add on, looking at workplace technology, actually much of the time I think, we are playing catch up; compare that to consumer technology, especially when it comes to the delivery experience. Workplace technology, their focus is on enterprise technology, which is, you know, focused on like, stability, you know, security and so on. And a lot of time, you know, the focus is not on delivering user experience; and of course, like Gametize, you know, I’ve been working with Gametize team for a very long time. My experience when it comes to using the platform, I know you guys start with focusing on experience.
Guan Heng Tan:
Sure, would it be fair to say then, at the workplace, it tends to be very functional in terms of the use of technology?
Jaxton Cheah:
Yeah, I mean, of course, because it’s a lot of focus on the processes, right? So they manage process. Example: take an HRMS; they are pitched to a certain extent, not really at the employees, but it’s more to the HR department. So it’s really a process driven kind of technology. That said, there are employee-centric technology, which needs to be introduced to some of these corporates.
Guan Heng Tan:
Right. Okay maybe we can dive a little deeper into this whole user experience, since we’re on it right now. So understandably, gamification is one way to boost user experience. But why are so many companies still struggling to create an engaging user experience?
Lovelynne Chong:
Okay, this, I think, relates to the technology portion. I feel like the application of technology differs between individuals and corporates. So I feel like one of the reasons why companies are struggling to create engaging user experience is because they don’t really have very targeted KPIs or objectives they want to meet. They themselves have not really thought about what technology or what kind of assets they need to really look into and achieve their KPIs. So it’s a chicken or egg problem, right? When your KPIs are not well defined, you don’t really have a good execution plan and you’re really just feeling in the dark. When somebody says, oh you should try this app, like Fireflies Notetaker, you try it, and then you realise, hey this doesn’t work for me. But at the end of the day, it’s also the constant evaluation process. And UI and UX is something that is built over a long period of time, not particularly very long, but it’s not an instant process. It’s really about empathising with the end user versus what you want as the person building it. And that is really what I feel about UI/UX. I get asked this question a lot, actually.
Guan Heng Tan:
Okay. It seems like you’ve brought up two issues in a way. One is, obviously the ill-defined KPIs or objectives. And the other one seems to be perhaps even a lack of understanding of the capability of the technology itself.
Lovelynne Chong:
I wouldn’t say ill-defined, I would say rigid. So I’ll give you an example. Sometimes people set KPIs. In the beginning, it looks attainable. But as time progresses, the KPIs sometimes are too inflexible and rigid to change, according to say, market changes, like when COVID hit, and it was an unknown; you won’t be able to achieve the kind of numbers that you set out from the beginning of 2020. It’s just not possible. There’s not enough footfall on the streets, right? And I think companies took too long to react to that so it became a very morbid situation. And by the time they adapted to the UI/UX, you know, the first movers that were flexible enough to move had already taken up a huge, huge market share, like grocery shopping, for example.
Guan Heng Tan:
Okay. Jaxton, your thoughts on this?
Jaxton Cheah:
I totally agree with Lovelynne when it comes to the KPI. I think it is really about a clear outcome, you know, that we actually need to predefine when we start the projects. And then, of course, to define the metrics for measuring that outcome, because I believe gamification is always like focusing on business objective, right? It’s not just for fun, or just to play a game. We are getting more traction when it comes to gamification. We receive a lot of calls from clients that want gamification: I want those leaderboard, I want points, you know, I want this rewards thing. So to me, I think their understanding of gamification may be a bit shallow. I mean, I think it is important as well, but probably, we may actually use features to onboard the employees at the beginning of the new experience that you introduced to them. But in the long run, I think we need to figure out something else that it’s actually more sustainable, right. So I think this is actually lacking; to have a long-term vision, because I think we all know, when we run so many gamification projects right, we can’t actually just keep giving people points, badges. Talk about reward budgets. Oh, many have a very limited reward budgets, even if we help them to figure out some other non-monetary options. But again, you know, if people actually get bored from time to time; if it’s a long journey, then it may actually be related to the design as well.
Are people just jumping on the Gamification bandwagon?
Guan Heng Tan:
Right. I just want to follow up on the point you made just now about, you know, gamification is gaining traction, right. So you’re getting a lot of calls and all that. What’s driving that interest? Or is this just people jumping on the bandwagon?
Jaxton Cheah:
I think it is always about technology adoption. An example: clients, they want to reimagine the employee onboarding journey. They want to adopt technology. They want to engage the young generation that you hire. Okay. They look at how to digitalize this process. The question becomes, so how would I motivate people? (They may respond) oh, I heard gamification is good, because we get points, you know, you have leaderboards that may get people so excited and they will actually compete. That’s all well and good. However, how can we actually engage them better? How I look at it is that it’s more about technology adoption; people want to change but sometimes they think that technology is actually a silver bullet. That they can use this to solve all their problems.
Guan Heng Tan:
Right, and what would be your approach with a client if they come to you thinking you can provide that silver bullet?
Jaxton Cheah:
I think I will nail down the scope, which is actually based on the expectations. Particularly, in terms of like the duration because we know, in terms of motivating players, duration matters. If we were to motivate people for a year or compared to a week, it’s very different. And we need to talk about budget. We are now very careful when we advise our clients. We also try to scope down as well, sometimes aksing the client to start small. We may strip it down, you know, so we do like one week, two weeks campaign. When you get traction, you get data, you get a business case, then eventually you can approach management for a bigger budget, to run a more significant project.
How can we sustain engagement?
Guan Heng Tan:
So, from the point of view of engagement, how do we sustain engagement?
Jaxton Cheah:
Okay, I’ll go back to workplace learning. So recently, we’re doing something with gamification. Earlier, I talked about the Golden Triangle, about learning strategies. When it comes to workplace learning, we want to deliver something meaningful. How do we define meaningful? We talked about the content being relevant. We look at what is actually helping your employees to learn a skill that will help them in their career progression. To get the job done faster, perform the task better. To be able to visualise the journey, the progress, and so on. So that’s what we do; we come up with the strategy to help them map competency. We ensure that there is this linkage with what you learn to how this is actually going to benefit you. And then you’re seeing yourself progressing, getting better. Sometimes there’s no visibility when it comes to the journey. However, with technology, right now, this is something we can do. Why I believe this is going to succeed, is because we have the whole conversation with the client. So this is what we’re looking at, because we deliver something that is sustainable, by looking at intrinsic motivations; what motivates besides actually just giving you a reward or giving you points from time to time. It’s really about letting you know that you are getting better every day, you know, on something that matters, to your career, or to your work, or to your life.
Guan Heng Tan:
All right, thanks. Thanks, Jaxton. Lovelynne, I mean, some marketing campaigns can be long and protracted. I mean, how do you sustain engagement in your part of the world?
Lovelynne Chong:
It’s interesting listening to the points Jaxton brought up. I think, for me, it’s also very relatable. Engagement is really like how you live your life, right? So you really got to keep it going consistently and constantly. And you ask me how do I do it in long, prolonged campaigns? I think for me, it’s really the excitement or the possibility of just engaging with an end user, and just seeing the results. That to me, keeps me going. But of course, having said that, I think gamification is a great way to really, you know, spice things up, keep things going, make things interesting, engaging, motivating. So engagement also comes in many forms. Personally, looking at so much data, right, is no longer about likes or comments. It’s also when they think about something or they talk about it later or they relate to it. So engagement to me is really when people are really touched by the content, or even if they play a game, or even if they do a quiz, or even if they are motivated to gain some badges or points. I think that, to me, itself is already engagement, that the whole concept of the interest.
Creating Advocates to increase Engagement
Guan Heng Tan:
Right. Okay. I guess looking at it from another point of view; let’s talk about advocates. People use that term, right? We want advocates. Not sure if everyone understands what’s required of an advocate, much less how to groom advocates. And keeping them, particularly in this age, a very fickle, transitory age. So, what are your thoughts on this? This whole idea of advocates? And how do we create them? Or how do we identify them and bring them on board?
Jaxton Cheah:
So maybe I share from an education point of view. We run gamification practitioner workshops. I think those people really buy into what we do, like, yes gamification is the way to go. I think it is important to get them to really work on their projects. To experience it, and then receive feedback, right, and to gain mastery of the methodology. So in the workshop, definitely, we will introduce the concept, but the more important part is to get them to build the first projects, first gamification project, using Gametize. We leverage on the success story where people continue to build on their project, and then they go back and test the projects with some of their colleagues. Eventually, they launch a project with subscriptions. It’s a good way to see gamification work in the real world, you know, in the workplace environment. And then they get to build a business case, and from there, get the endorsement from the management to go on to bigger projects. So we have clients who have been with us for couple of years, and by working on the gamification projects, they become our advocates; become an expert. Yeah. So I think that’s, that’s my take, that’s what we can do to support them.
Guan Heng Tan:
Okay. Lovelynne, your understanding of this idea of advocates?
Lovelynne Chong:
Well, we’re moving towards a world where commitment, the definition of commitment has changed drastically. And in the beginning of this panel we actually talked about, you know, how to keep people’s attention span I feel that the first thing we need to do to create advocates is to first acknowledge that the definition of things like commitment has changed. The second thing I feel that is necessary, in order to have advocates, is to understand that they cannot stay in one state for prolonged periods of time. So they can shift from advocates to being people that, you know, you have to get to know, all over again, engage, go through the entire funnel repeatedly. And that, to me, when somebody has achieved true advocate status is really when you are the only loyalty programme that they use, or when you’re the only airline that they will fly. But personally, I also agree with Jaxton that gamification is a way that you can really help them understand and build a connection and a bond with you, the brand, the businesses, and that, to me, is how you can really create advocates. I mean, looking at their engagement with, your campaigns and content will roughly tell you where they stand as well, and what needs to be done and how to improve. So yeah, pretty much that’s what I think.
Guan Heng Tan:
You mentioned that the definition of commitment has changed. Would you mind expanding on that? What has it changed to?
Lovelynne Chong:
Okay yeah so like consumer preferences, right? It’s really like, previously, let’s say you drink this brand of milk, you’re only gonna drink it for the rest of your life; you probably will be very resistant to change. Today, you’re really not loyal to any brand. It’s really who’s talking about it and what kind of benefits or what kind of perceived benefits that you think you may have from drinking it. Or even car brands or even consumer products, right? So I think that’s something that’s really changed, especially in the last five to ten years. People are no longer, you know, gonna say things like, I’m an Apple user, I will only use Apple products. That’s very untrue. Unless you’re from a certain era. I mean, that tells our age but I think today they’re really not that way anymore. It’s not gonna be oh, I can only wear shoes from Nike. No, I think they don’t. It’s really more about oh, I saw this on Tik Tok and this is really cool. Even the commitment level towards influencers have evolved tremendously. And you can see that from how when influencers make mistakes, half their followers will just cancel them, like, sorry, I’m not gonna stick by you. But 20 years ago, you can have all sorts of scandals and the fan base is still strong and like, okay, I don’t care, I just love this singer. So to me personally, I think we need to redefine commitment, as well as what advocates truly mean today.
Guan Heng Tan:
Right, I was just about to ask you that, since we have to redefine what commitment means, then we have to define, or redefine, what advocates should be or are. It’s become, to me, a bit hazy right now. If the consumer isn’t going to be loyal to one brand and they’re going to be discerning as in they will then perhaps jump from brand to brand or have multiple types of milk in the fridge for example. Can they still be advocates?
Lovelynne Chong:
Definitely. I mean, so, to me, I say we should change the definition of the commitment and the commitment period because to me I think they are an advocate the moment your milk ends up in their fridge. (laughs) Because if you end up in their fridge, you have a high chance of ending up on their Instagram, you have a high chance of ending up on their network, so that to me is a very good funnel. If you don’t even end up in their fridge, sorry, but no.
Guan Heng Tan:
Good point. It could be in the fridge because it’s the cheapest brand at that point in time.
Lovelynne Chong:
Or you’re not gonna drink it, you just wanna ‘gram it. So, either or.
Guan Heng Tan:
Fair point. Jaxton, anything you want to add?
Jaxton Cheah:
Just to add on, I think when we have more people successfully implementing gamification projects, it influences more people to actually belief in the methodology. So I see people, just in the last seven, eight years, you know when I jumped on this gamification journey, who are more convinced this is the way to go.
Guan Heng Tan:
Because it works. So it kind of has to work, first and foremost.
Jaxton Cheah:
Yeah. People need to see success stories even in a corporate environment right; so we are tempted to showcase the big projects. But we always advise clients, let’s start with a small project, build a business case, understand your audience, then create a better chance for success on a bigger project. Don’t go out with a bang at the very beginning.
Thoughts on the next five years?
Guan Heng Tan:
Okay. Great. Wonderful discussion so far. Perhaps we should kind of wrap up. One last question for the both of you, your thoughts on the next five years.
Jaxton Cheah:
Okay. Maybe I’ll go first. So I think that Covid accelerated digital transformation and I also believe that we’ll be very much different even just over the next year in the business landscape. People are craving for the physical experience again; but because there are many companies that have experienced how digital helps or may be more effective and efficient and more productive during the period of time, they will probably come back and want more (digital). I believe the next five years will see more technology adoptions, digitalisations, in terms of processes, yeah. We should see digital transformation in terms of people-process-technology and people always comes first. So I think there’s a place for a human-centered kind of method in gamification and all these things.
Guan Heng Tan:
Thanks Jaxton. Lovelynne?
Lovelynne Chong:
When you ask that question I smirked a little bit because I was going to say I can’t think that long. Five years is too long.
Guan Heng Tan:
What’s your horizon then?
Lovelynne Chong:
No, I’m just kidding because you know we were talking about commitment, duration. But personally I think the next five years will be really interesting. I think the way consumers and people react with technology will change tremendously. It will be kind of like a reliance versus resistance concept I feel. And so I think in terms of how we can really increase advocates is really look at alternative mediums and strategies such as gamification, amplification, optimisation, instead of just, you know, going through the churn of things and, okay this worked for 2020 so let’s do this. But really examine what the audience wants and really emphasize on building quality relationships versus quantity, I think that, to me, should be how the next five years should be.
Guan Heng Tan:
Alright. Great. I just really want to thank both of you for sharing your thoughts and your expertise and mostly, your time, on this topic. At Gametize, we are invested in putting forward quality content and encouraging spirited intellectual discourse. More importantly, we want to advocate on behalf of sound, innovative, and people-centric solutions. So again, thanks to the both of you, and to our subsequent viewers and readers. I hope you enjoyed this piece as much as we’ve had producing it. So I just want to say good day, and take care, and once again thank you very much for your time.
Jaxton Cheah:
Thank you for having me. Bye.
Lovelynne Chong:
Thank you, thanks Guan, thanks Jaxton. Bye.
Disclaimer: This transcription is not produced verbatim but edited to suit text formats.